Xanier said:My nestalgic blood says, the run from N Freeport to Hallas was dangerous, scary and made me very nervous and it was FUN.....
My 2016 self says, if we make travel to tedious, even those of us who love the old days, may get a little annoyed at travel.
That's because your 2016 self has been abused for the last decade + by the casual and instant gratification crowd. You are probably suffering from Stockholm syndrome and need an early EQ 1 fix while waiting for Pantheon.
@Hieromonk
I didn't say I agreed or disagreed. I was saying it wasn't my place to say if I/we play a role/apart in this game's mechanics or not. It's up to the devs to decide that. I'm not going to discuss the finer details of a game mechanic without permission/knowledge that it's ok todo so; even if it's just speculatory.. it can be seen as stepping on toes.
Kilsin said:Absolutely, the community plays a part and will continue to do so in the testing phases, my post was a friendly general reminder to everyone to post personal opinions/suggestions/ideas and not state it as official fact, as anything stated as official fact will be dismissed or moderated by the team.
If we haven't released an official word on a mechanic or feature etc. then only opinions, suggestions and ideas can be discussed.
Lol, I've seen a lot of games go through beta. Even what is official word can change during development, so I try not to put words in the developer's mouths. It's far too easy to misread something or misinterpert a quote. In fact it's far better if I can just link to a quote from a developer and let it speak for itself.
Kayd said:Kilsin said:Absolutely, the community plays a part and will continue to do so in the testing phases, my post was a friendly general reminder to everyone to post personal opinions/suggestions/ideas and not state it as official fact, as anything stated as official fact will be dismissed or moderated by the team.
If we haven't released an official word on a mechanic or feature etc. then only opinions, suggestions and ideas can be discussed.Lol, I've seen a lot of games go through beta. Even what is official word can change during development, so I try not to put words in the developer's mouths. It's far too easy to misread something or misinterpert a quote. In fact it's far better if I can just link to a quote from a developer and let it speak for itself.
That is definitely the best approach to take mate, making games like this takes a long time and many things can change over the course of the development as you said, so when we have solid information and we are ready to release it, we do, but games like this usually take ~5 years to make before even getting to the testing phase so while it seems like there is little info and slow going at the moment it will all change within the next few months as we hit pre-alpha and start really ramping up the output of info.
Until that time, there can only be speculation, ideas and suggestions which we appreciate and keep an eye on but for the most part, we already have used feedback over the last year to implement most of the mechanics and features to get us to this point in development and the further along we go, the less we will be taking feedback on actual mechanics as we will be looking to the community to test for us while we balance, break and fine tune everything already in place! :)
Of course, if something doesn't work or feel right during testing, we can always look at removing it, replacing it or changing it if possible but nevertheless there will be more to talk about in the coming months.
I kind of liked the basic idea of VG's fast travel in its early days. Portals only in major cities/hubs. You have to visit first to unlock. Buy stones, have them in your inventory to be able travel.
Pantheon could improve upon that, I'm sure. Maybe with the stones made only by crafters or certain classes (rarer resources give more distance to travel stones, etc.?), maybe having to get a specific amount of faction in that area to be able to unlock the portals, completing specific questlines, having certain powers, classes that can teleport, etc...
This type of system would still allow for exploration, especially at the lower levels while you are still finding new cities and learning the land, yet allows those higher level characters who have traveled extensively an option to move a bit faster across those lower level areas. It also encourages crafting, marketplace, and player interaction. It keeps things interesting, and not static.
I'd be down for something like that...
Nimryl said:@Hieromonk
I didn't say I agreed or disagreed. I was saying it wasn't my place to say if I/we play a role/apart in this game's mechanics or not. It's up to the devs to decide that. I'm not going to discuss the finer details of a game mechanic without permission/knowledge that it's ok todo so; even if it's just speculatory.. it can be seen as stepping on toes.
Agree, or disagree, it doesn't matter.
The truth is the Community has a say in the game's mechanics. As the early EQ community (1998) had a say in making EverQuest's mechanics, & the VG community had a say in the making of Vanguard.
Secondly, One does not need permission (from anyone) to discuss mechanics, or hypothisis on how it should be. If you are waiting on Visionary Realms to have all the answer then why alpha~beta test..? Why do you think they have us here?
Thirdly, I step on toes... I am not here to win a popularity contest. I am here because of my knowledge and experience & to hold a fire under Visionary Realms to make the best MMROPG possible. With the best game mechanics possible... so this game will last another 17 years. That is why I spent $600 bucks.. to be heard.
Back to my if it aint broke dont fix it argument, I really found nothing wrong with EQ's (early) travel system. It made the world feel huge, alive and real. No, I wasnt a druid or wizard (warrior actually) but I met and made friends with quite a lot of them over the years. And thats the point.
Garmr
Maybe Eq2 style. Portals ships and teleporters to certain zones but sometimes you will need to travel over 2 or 3 zones to get to your objective. Maybe add in some interzone travel like Spirit horses or griffons. I would also like to be able to buy horses or some other animal for slighty faster interzone travel.
Hieromonk said:Agree, or disagree, it doesn't matter.
The truth is the Community has a say in the game's mechanics. As the early EQ community (1998) had a say in making EverQuest's mechanics, & the VG community had a say in the making of Vanguard.
Secondly, One does not need permission (from anyone) to discuss mechanics, or hypothisis on how it should be. If you are waiting on Visionary Realms to have all the answer then why alpha~beta test..? Why do you think they have us here?
Thirdly, I step on toes... I am not here to win a popularity contest. I am here because of my knowledge and experience & to hold a fire under Visionary Realms to make the best MMROPG possible. With the best game mechanics possible... so this game will last another 17 years. That is why I spent $600 bucks.. to be heard.
Firstly to suggest ideas isn't the problem; I just think personally if you start going into depth when it's someone else job too then I think you're stepping on toes.
Secondly, no I do not need permission to go into depth technically but I will not presume to think that VR wants my help in that way; when I'm sure they have decent team of their own.
Thirdly, you can do what you want.. I'm not here to stop you. By rights you could be right with you're (perceived) assumptions. I admire your passion but "$600 bucks.. to be heard" that's abit "entitled" don't you think?
No... Just no on portals everyone can use at any time.
Have a class or classes that can port themselves and people, and hey - what do you know you have now just added another feature that adds to community and people interaction.
Edit: Boats like EQ1 are a MUST as well for newbs who do not know anyone or clowns that the server has learned to not like.
Boat travel was the best. I still remember getting dumped from the boat in Erud's Crossing and disconnecting. When I logged back in I was back at my bind point. Nothing like trying to find your corpse somewhere in a huge underwater zone.
One idea from short-lived mmo Horizons - have players build the infrastructure for certain conveniences, like a travel portal. Maybe people cant do it on launch day - it requires recipes and raw materials that cant be accessed until later. Then people work together to build the portal and it becomes part of the way people travel. Add the potential it could be destroyed, and would have to be rebuilt, for some additional realism.
But anyway, I remain committed to the idea that travel can be an adventure in and of itself, and should not be easy.
One idea from short-lived mmo Horizons - have players build the infrastructure for certain conveniences, like a travel portal. Maybe people cant do it on launch day - it requires recipes and raw materials that cant be accessed until later. Then people work together to build the portal and it becomes part of the way people travel. Add the potential it could be destroyed, and would have to be rebuilt, for some additional realism.
Groovy idea!
Romulus said:One idea from short-lived mmo Horizons - have players build the infrastructure for certain conveniences, like a travel portal. Maybe people cant do it on launch day - it requires recipes and raw materials that cant be accessed until later. Then people work together to build the portal and it becomes part of the way people travel. Add the potential it could be destroyed, and would have to be rebuilt, for some additional realism.
Horizon's claims to be the best crafting MMO and actually it was among the best I've played. Hotice I said claims, because it's still around :)
It just changed names. I liked the way harvesting worked, resources could repopulate in one of several places so if you stayed in the same place too long the resources would dry up. Then you'd move to a new field and it would be loaded. Also, the Dragon Rite of Passage was a blast.
What I didn't like is the "vision" of the game kept shifting during development (maybe it had to or it would have never been completed). So if you came there because it sounded really cool, you found the game you came for was gone by the time it was released. Why did it keep changing? They decided to go away from the original vision, which would have been cool and different, and make an EQ clone.
Nimryl said:Hieromonk said:Agree, or disagree, it doesn't matter.
The truth is the Community has a say in the game's mechanics. As the early EQ community (1998) had a say in making EverQuest's mechanics, & the VG community had a say in the making of Vanguard.
Secondly, One does not need permission (from anyone) to discuss mechanics, or hypothisis on how it should be. If you are waiting on Visionary Realms to have all the answer then why alpha~beta test..? Why do you think they have us here?
Thirdly, I step on toes... I am not here to win a popularity contest. I am here because of my knowledge and experience & to hold a fire under Visionary Realms to make the best MMROPG possible. With the best game mechanics possible... so this game will last another 17 years. That is why I spent $600 bucks.. to be heard.
Firstly to suggest ideas isn't the problem; I just think personally if you start going into depth when it's someone else job too then I think you're stepping on toes.
Secondly, no I do not need permission to go into depth technically but I will not presume to think that VR wants my help in that way; when I'm sure they have decent team of their own.
Thirdly, you can do what you want.. I'm not here to stop you. By rights you could be right with you're (perceived) assumptions. I admire your passion but "$600 bucks.. to be heard" that's abit "entitled" don't you think?
This is a pre-alpha forum...
The idea that we (the community) can't influence the game.. vs more traditional pattern of past brad-games, in which the core community had always influenced core mechanics of the games. is your mea culpa.
The backers and fans and community are the ones trying to hold the game true to it's role playing elements. VRi has already used player suggestions, fact. (your bad?). Matter of fact, a few members of VRi where indeed forum members first.
So Your suggestion that we should not offer anymore ideas up, & remain silent... does not hold water with me. It is how you feel, that showing how creative One can get with simple in-game mechanics.. is being "presumptuous"...? We are not on the official Pantheon Alpha forums yet, & forums are still part of the fundraiser.
You, and Me.. may not be here for the same purpose.
Many have donated to be part of early development and testing. I wasn't boasting at the $600... (that is pittance), I was simply referencing a pledge tier. And yes, Visionary Realms does have a decent team. I was here for the announcements of every one of it's members...
Correct, I am not going to stop offering up some colorful (& doable) game mechanics, because you think it is presumptuous. Just wait until we have official game forums (When alpha starts), I will be having threads based on all kinds of in-game mechanics. Don't mistake my facetious use of such mechanics, as implied, but to illustrate how far you could take a simple idea. You can tone down any metric to make the properties work, etc.
Fast travel is based off LORE and physics known (& unknown and mystical) in Terminus. Once you read all lore available, & listen to podcast & people talking about lore and the direction of lore... then you can begin to figure out how FAST TRAVEL mechanic might begin to work with lore. But that mechanic must be in the game, before you can begin to make it suite your purposes. That these mechanics are what makes some games just an MMO, & others a MMORPG.
I don't offer my ideas lightly, you can try and vet anythng I have suggested. It has reason, & cause.
Agree on this:
-Fast travel must always have a cost.
-Fast travel must always have a price.
-Fast travel must have risk & even failure. (always be a roll of the dice and not certain)
And that there are different forms of fast travel. Gate is technically different than a Portal. In todays 64bit game worlds, each type of fast travel can have it's own mechanic. And perhaps it's own requirements. As we know, Portals open up and essentially anyone around can jump through. While Gate is more personal, direct & instant. These are two distinc forms of Fast Travel that can have vastly different properties and Costs, Prices & Failures associated with them. Which is important.
Heck, the economy itself might play a role & limit easy forms of travel... such as not enough crafters are involved in the process, causing a hiccup... or even 5 years later, there will still have to be crafters and people making these materials & reagents for gating, etc..
Gating may be easy to do, but costly in time (or money) to get the fresh reagents. (etc)
Idealizing & Pondering now and eventually adding such mechanics... means gating 5 years from now won't become trivial... and will have a cost. However remedial.
Xanier said:My nestalgic blood says, the run from N Freeport to Hallas was dangerous, scary and made me very nervous and it was FUN.....
My 2016 self says, if we make travel to tedious, even those of us who love the old days, may get a little annoyed at travel.
Thats not just nostalgia, I still rank my first run from Halas to Freeport as a warrior, the best mom experience I've had to date. Took forever, I died a ton, got lost then found and made some great friends along the way.
@Hieromonk
I already told you, I'm not here to stop you.. Infact I like suggestions. I said I don't think there's any point going into the finer details when I'm pretty sure they can figure that out themselves.. and if they want those details; I'm sure they'll ask.. but I'm not going to tell them or even suggest how to do their mechanics.. that's up to them... you think differently ofc.
Look I've ended up repeating myself here.. let's give it a rest and get back on topic as this conversation is getting no where. We agree to disagree and that's that.
Rubezahl said:I'm wondering how quick travel will work in this game. Why? Because I think quick travel is one of the biggest things that help make a game world feel real.
For me, Planes of Power destroyed Norrath. Suddenly it didn't matter where you were from, everyone was everywhere. Want to make a human monk and level them in Butcherblock? It wasn't a four hour trip (if you didn't die), it took as long as two loading screens. Suddenly this huge wonderful world, was just a video game.
I'm not saying that travel has to be completely dangerous, but make it time consuming. If I cross a continent by foot, it should feel like a long journey.
If there are boats, don't put translocators there. Make me ride the boat. Make me feel the pain if I go to get a beer and come back and I missed the dock and I'm heading back to Freeport. Just also, put someone on the boat steering it. Cause a boat that just follows the path... it's kinda creepy.
I just hope this world feels huge, and the distance makes people decide that it is better to stay where you are and get decent exp, than move every 20 minutes to go just a little bit faster.
Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense, it's late and I was just waiting on a ship. :)
This, of course, is a HUGE topic. I think you know our high level goals -- we want travel to mean something and we definitely don't want a world where you can just teleport with impunity anywhere you want at any time. On the other hand, I don't think it's realistic (or fun) to have to walk everywhere, all of the time, and for that journey to be unnecessarily tedius.
Here's what I can say at this point: some classes will be able to teleport within reasonable limits. What's important to me are Call of the Hero type spells, ressurection spells, etc. Spells that certain classes can cast that help keep groups together, especially if they are in a dungeon.
I just looked up EQ's Call of the Hero: Conjures a mystical portal that summons one of your allies to your side. The target must be in your group to be summoned. Consumes a pearl when cast.
So there are reasonable limitations... they need to be in your group, it does cost a reagent. It doesn't say you need to be in a dungeon... I kinda think you should.
Ressurection? Certainly in a partial wipe, if the cleric survives, he should be able to ressurect you and bring you back to the group. Again, especialy in the depths of a dungeon.
So when it comes to keeping an adventuring party together, we like it within reason.
And like I said, the extreme polar opposite of teleporting anywhere in the world with impunity isn't even a consideration -- that's not Pantheon.
Which then brings us to a middle ground, if there is one :) And here I'm going to have to be more vague. We have a lot of ideas... certain specific areas you may be able to teleport to at certain times, if you have traveled there before yourself, etc.... that sort of thing. But the reason I'm being vague is that we don't have our whole world done, and we don't have thousands of players running around that world, and we don't know yet to what degree (if any) we'll need to expediate travel to avoid tedium and to make sure people can find each other, get together, and group up... What we'll do is get these systems... these variations on a theme ready... and then when we are in beta and can truly assess if some limited teleportation is needed we'll try out our ideas and see which ones we like and which ones you guys like. That, amongst other reasons, is why a nice, long beta is paramount to launching a great MMO.
Hieromonk said:This is a pre-alpha forum...
The idea that we (the community) can't influence the game.. vs more traditional pattern of past brad-games, in which the core community had always influenced core mechanics of the games. is your mea culpa.
The backers and fans and community are the ones trying to hold the game true to it's role playing elements. VRi has already used player suggestions, fact. (your bad?). Matter of fact, a few members of VRi where indeed forum members first.
So Your suggestion that we should not offer anymore ideas up, & remain silent... does not hold water with me. It is how you feel, that showing how creative One can get with simple in-game mechanics.. is being "presumptuous"...? We are not on the official Pantheon Alpha forums yet, & forums are still part of the fundraiser.
You, and Me.. may not be here for the same purpose.
Many have donated to be part of early development and testing. I wasn't boasting at the $600... (that is pittance), I was simply referencing a pledge tier. And yes, Visionary Realms does have a decent team. I was here for the announcements of every one of it's members...
Correct, I am not going to stop offering up some colorful (& doable) game mechanics, because you think it is presumptuous. Just wait until we have official game forums (When alpha starts), I will be having threads based on all kinds of in-game mechanics. Don't mistake my facetious use of such mechanics, as implied, but to illustrate how far you could take a simple idea. You can tone down any metric to make the properties work, etc.
Fast travel is based off LORE and physics known (& unknown and mystical) in Terminus. Once you read all lore available, & listen to podcast & people talking about lore and the direction of lore... then you can begin to figure out how FAST TRAVEL mechanic might begin to work with lore. But that mechanic must be in the game, before you can begin to make it suite your purposes. That these mechanics are what makes some games just an MMO, & others a MMORPG.
I don't offer my ideas lightly, you can try and vet anythng I have suggested. It has reason, & cause.
Just wanted to quickly interject here: You are very right. We've always valued and appreciated community input, even this early along. We do have a great team, but it would be very arrogant to say that we have all the answers and have the capacity to create a near perfect game in a vacuum.
I *very* much appreciate the community we have already and love reading through the forums, thinking through the ideas that are brought up, etc.
There are also systems that we've not yet set in stone, usually because they are the type that require us to be in beta before we have enough information to determine if the system is a good one, or if it needs to be tweaked, or even pulled. In the last couple of days I've participated in several threads where I've asked for specific feedback on systems like this. And the feedback has been very helpful.
I guess the only type of feedback or posts that would be a bit unwelcome would be:
1. trolling
2. complaining repeatedly about something we've already said is set in stone.
3. being rude to each other while debating possible systems and solutions
4. criticizing other games or developers in a non-constructive way (basically, just to rip on them).
I may be forgetting a few, but that pretty much sums it up. Kilsin, if I'm forgetting anything here, please correct me -- I don't want to step on your toes :)
Aradune said:Hieromonk said:This is a pre-alpha forum...
The idea that we (the community) can't influence the game.. vs more traditional pattern of past brad-games, in which the core community had always influenced core mechanics of the games. is your mea culpa.
The backers and fans and community are the ones trying to hold the game true to it's role playing elements. VRi has already used player suggestions, fact. (your bad?). Matter of fact, a few members of VRi where indeed forum members first.
So Your suggestion that we should not offer anymore ideas up, & remain silent... does not hold water with me. It is how you feel, that showing how creative One can get with simple in-game mechanics.. is being "presumptuous"...? We are not on the official Pantheon Alpha forums yet, & forums are still part of the fundraiser.
You, and Me.. may not be here for the same purpose.
Many have donated to be part of early development and testing. I wasn't boasting at the $600... (that is pittance), I was simply referencing a pledge tier. And yes, Visionary Realms does have a decent team. I was here for the announcements of every one of it's members...
Correct, I am not going to stop offering up some colorful (& doable) game mechanics, because you think it is presumptuous. Just wait until we have official game forums (When alpha starts), I will be having threads based on all kinds of in-game mechanics. Don't mistake my facetious use of such mechanics, as implied, but to illustrate how far you could take a simple idea. You can tone down any metric to make the properties work, etc.
Fast travel is based off LORE and physics known (& unknown and mystical) in Terminus. Once you read all lore available, & listen to podcast & people talking about lore and the direction of lore... then you can begin to figure out how FAST TRAVEL mechanic might begin to work with lore. But that mechanic must be in the game, before you can begin to make it suite your purposes. That these mechanics are what makes some games just an MMO, & others a MMORPG.
I don't offer my ideas lightly, you can try and vet anythng I have suggested. It has reason, & cause.
Just wanted to quickly interject here: You are very right. We've always valued and appreciated community input, even this early along. We do have a great team, but it would be very arrogant to say that we have all the answers and have the capacity to create a near perfect game in a vacuum.
I *very* much appreciate the community we have already and love reading through the forums, thinking through the ideas that are brought up, etc.
There are also systems that we've not yet set in stone, usually because they are the type that require us to be in beta before we have enough information to determine if the system is a good one, or if it needs to be tweaked, or even pulled. In the last couple of days I've participated in several threads where I've asked for specific feedback on systems like this. And the feedback has been very helpful.
I guess the only type of feedback or posts that would be a bit unwelcome would be:
1. trolling
2. complaining repeatedly about something we've already said is set in stone.
3. being rude to each other while debating possible systems and solutions
4. criticizing other games or developers in a non-constructive way (basically, just to rip on them).
I may be forgetting a few, but that pretty much sums it up. Kilsin, if I'm forgetting anything here, please correct me -- I don't want to step on your toes :)
You nailed it, looks good man, the only thing I would add is respecting each others opinions, we see a lot of arguing over opinions as if they are official words and that is usually just not the case, so a bit of respect for each other when discussing ideas and suggestions would go a long way as it makes it tough to gather great feedback when I have to sift through pages of back and forth arguments over opinions! :)
Other than that, keep the feedback coming!
I'm for no quick travel aside from caster classes porting to a limited number of locations and also run speed spells from certain classes. Accomplishing something in game for 2hrs could be the traveling adventure you had from point A to point B. In my opinion quick travel only has negative effects long/short term.
And for the people who say they don't have time... this post is coming from someone who has been working 80-140hrs a week for the last year. Don't try to dumb the game down to be selfish think back to all the great times you had traveling in games and want that same experience for the next generation to come behind us so they know what a real game is all about!